Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, Maryland had a very important meeting with its members this past Sunday night. A transcript has been made public at this website [you will find it below]. I'd encourage you to read it.
Joshua and the pastors have a pulse on the issues. They are doing a good job. I appreciate the accountability they are bringing to C.J. and the Board and I respect the humility they are demonstrating by allowing for more involvement by the congregation.
I wish the SGM Board would follow the example of the CLC pastors in their openness, approachability, humility, and desire for accountability. I only took exception to Grant’s comments regarding judging. Godly judgments can include motives, which I have done with C.J. or Dave, when there is an abundance of evidence that clearly reveals their hearts. The biblical writers constantly address the heart and confront motives.
James 4:1-3 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? 2 You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
Members Meeting | October 30, 2011
Below are notes from our October 30, 2011 Members Meeting. They are not an exact transcript due to adjustments for grammar and readability, but they faithfully communicate all that was shared. The audio recording is also available at the bottom of the page.
INTRODUCTION [Speaker: Joshua Harris]
Ephesians 4:1-16 reminds us that we, the church, are the body of Christ. We are united because of our common faith in Jesus Christ.
Paul uses two metaphors to describe God’s purpose for his church—a young person maturing to manhood and a human body growing. God doesn’t want his church immature or stunted. He wants us to walk in a manner that matches the mighty salvation he has won for us.
Think about your own life and experience of maturing into adulthood. Or think about the experience of your physical body growing. Both experiences in their own ways are awkward, even painful. Growing in maturity involves making mistakes, stumbling and sometimes learning the hard way. And physical growth involves growing pains.
The same is true for us as a church. Growing up and maturing as a church sometimes involves growing pains. It’s not always clean or easy. For the past several months, we’ve experienced a measure of pain and discomfort as a church. But we’re not discouraged, because we have faith that God is maturing us. He is growing us up. He is doing a good work. He has a purpose.
Some people look at this current situation and they see controversy and leadership failures. Your pastors see God’s loving hand, helping us recognize weaknesses and blind spots in our church that we’ve needed to address.
Some people look at this crisis and see it as a set back—we look at it and see a God-given moment for reform and revival. We see God awakening people to pray and to study the Word and to take ownership for their church like never before.
Yes, it’s been uncomfortable. But we believe God is preparing us for greater effectiveness, greater faithfulness and greater maturity for his glory.
VISION [Speaker: Joshua Harris]
Covenant Life, I want to remind you who we are: We are a local church made up of redeemed sinners who have been purchased by the blood of Christ to be God’s people (
Acts 20:28). We belong to Jesus. We exist to love him, worship him, obey him and proclaim his glorious gospel to the world.
We will never abandon the solid foundation that this church has been built on. We are going to “keep the main thing the main thing.” We are going to keep the grace of God in the gospel at the center of our lives and our message.
We believe and treasure the doctrines of grace found in God’s Word that teach us “salvation belongs to the Lord.” (
Jonah 2:9)
We’re not saved by our works or because we chose God, we’re saved because in his sovereign grace, he came looking for us (
Ephesians 1-2). He chose us and redeemed us. And he will keep us to the end!
And we believe that it is only by the Power of Holy Spirit that we can be born again, understand and obey the Word and boldly take the gospel to a lost and dying world. And so we seek the power, presence and gifts of the Holy Spirit.
But we haven’t arrived. We haven’t “attained the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood” (v 13). We still need to and want to grow. Over the past several years God has been helping us see ways in which we need to mature. One area in particular is the relationship between the pastors and the congregation. We believe we can strengthen our partnership. We don’t want ministry to bottleneck with the pastoral team—we want to see even greater engagement by every member.
So many of you are already actively engaged in doing ministry, but we believe this can increase. Our vision for the future of Covenant Life is to see every member of this church unleashed for ministry. We want every member to be a disciple and a disciple-maker.
Ephesians 4:16 describes this as every member working properly and making the body grow. We need every member of this church to think of themselves as ministers of the gospel.
Pastors are not the only ones who minister! That’s the message we want to trumpet. We are called to lead and teach—but we do this to equip the members to minister alongside us (
Ephesians 4:12).
And that’s the future we are committed to. It’s a future that will involve more dialogue and partnership between pastors and members in doing ministry.
Ephesians 4:4 reminds us that the Holy Spirit dwells in every member of the church. We are one body. The congregation needs pastors to lead, teach and shepherd. And pastors need the accountability, wisdom and partnership of the congregation.
Later tonight I’m going to have Kenneth come and share more specifics of how we plan to grow in congregational involvement and how this relates directly to our new constitution. But right now Robin is going to come and share more regarding our brother Gary Ricucci…
RECENT MEMBERSHIP TRANSFER [Speaker: Robin Boisvert]
As we move forward as a church, there are going to be times when people in our church won’t share the same exact same vision. That’s not wrong. It’s okay for us to see things differently. 
Earlier this month Gary Ricucci decided to transfer his membership to our sister church, Solid Rock. Gary was one of the founding pastors of Covenant Life and served here for 28 years before transitioning to the Pastors College eight years ago, where he continues to serve now. We deeply love and appreciate this man. We can’t overstate how grateful we are to Gary and Betsy for all they have invested in this church from its beginnings.
I met with Gary and Betsy on a Saturday afternoon a few weeks ago. We are old friends and remain friends. Along with CJ, Gary and I go back to 1973 when we began serving the Lord together.
Gary has been faithful to express disagreements with us in our handling of this recent crisis. We asked him how he would like for us to communicate his perspective, and this is what he said.
His concerns and disagreements include—his words—“the desire for scriptural guidance in the content and leadership of the several members meetings; the comments made about Sovereign Grace Ministries and CJ Mahaney; our [Covenant Life’s] post on the SGM Survivors Blog; and the recent content and oversight of the CLC family blog and private CLC members forum.
He had also expressed concerns from last December related to meetings held in Josh’s home with members to talk about places we’ve gotten things wrong as a church. Among other things, Gary was concerned that these meetings involved people unnecessarily and unhelpfully in the complaints of others.
Gary’s concerns emphasize the fact that Scripture constrains us to keep matters limited to those parties involved. Scripture texts such as
Matthew 18 and
1 Timothy 5 call for a fair and appropriately private process of correcting a brother and weighing a charge against an elder. We agree with those texts. But, that’s not what was happening in our members’ meetings. Corrections and charges had already become public, and CJ had confessed to certain sins and leadership failures. He asked forgiveness of our church for the effect of those sins on us.
We don’t believe that Scripture restricts involved parties from discussing among themselves the effects of a leader’s confessed sins.
Because our church was affected by those confessed sins, we thought it was appropriate for our members to ask their pastors questions about what was taking place. We believe this was in keeping with Scripture’s call to shepherd the flock entrusted to us with humility toward one another and to be examples to the flock (1 Peter 5). A month ago, our pastoral team took time to listen again to the first three members meetings. Our leadership was flawed at points, but we believe we were faithful to care for this congregation, as well as call for a fair process for CJ.
We believe pastoral discernment at times calls for forbearance rather than correction (
Colossians 3:12-13,
Ephesians 4:2). We will not allow patterns of sin to go unaddressed in our church, but we believe that the priority in those moments [the members meetings] should not have been to correct speech but to listen and urge one another to consider and apply the gospel, which should humble us all and which in time will bear the fruit of gracious speech. We have repeatedly called you to believe and apply the gospel to your thinking and speech in Sunday sermons, members meetings, blog posts, etc., and we trust that this will bear fruit in due season. In the meantime, where we see harmful examples of sinful speech, we will address them.
Gary mentioned a concern about the church member blog on our church website and the private members’ forum. The church member blog is led by pastors, and we monitor its content and tone. The private members’ forum was created by members; pastors do not monitor it or even have access to it. We affirm the right of church members who are having dialogue on the forum to express their views, and we respect their desire to serve the church, but we do not claim to endorse the forum. We have met with the moderators of this forum to ask questions and encourage them to work hard at upholding godly speech on the forum. We have established lines of open, clear communication with them.
We understand Gary’s concerns and the convictions that inform them. We share his commitment to Scripture. We differ on how biblical principles should be applied. But even though we differ on this we can still honor and commend each other. Gary has been very gracious in the way he’s spoken about us. And the feeling is mutual. We love and respect Gary and his family. We know he will be a blessing in his new church. And we continue to be co-laborers in the gospel. We are happy to talk to anyone who has further questions.
But I’d like to encourage you, if you’ve benefited from Gary and Betsy’s ministry, to write them, to communicate that, to let them know that. I think your love and appreciation and the gracious way you communicate that would be extremely beneficial and a blessing to them.
GODLY SPEECH [Speaker: Grant Layman]
I want to take a few minutes to look at what the Bible says about “godly speech.” This is important because there is tension in our congregation between members who are interpreting recent events differently. And I think it might help to describe a few different categories of people in our church right now:
The first group consists of people who are new and have no clue what is happening. God bless you. Some of you have said to us, “What’s the big deal? Can’t we just move on?” I want to ask you to be patient and compassionate toward those whose long-standing relationships are being affected right now.
The second group consists of those who have real questions and are watching this very closely and talking about it. These men and women are greatly concerned that the issues that have been revealed be rightly addressed. This group may or may not include people who have read some or all of the documents and so they have a greater understanding of what has been acknowledged and they’re understandably concerned.
The third group consists of people who are dismayed that other members are upset with leaders and asking questions and voicing their opinions. These are often people who have stayed away from most of the information online. They’re waiting for a process to unfold, but they’re being greatly tempted by other members who are struggling and voicing strong opinions about the situation.
I share these categories because I hope it will help us all remember that we’re coming into this conversation with different experiences. And all of us need to put on, as
Colossians 3:12 reminds us, compassion, kindness, humility, meekness and love toward one another.
So how do we talk to each other and communicate in a godly way when we have different viewpoints? Let me remind us of a few biblical guidelines for our communication.
Ephesians 4:29 says, “Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.” This applies to our words, what we write in an e-mail and what we post online.
This passage doesn’t mean that we cannot ask questions or speak about issues with others. To disagree or debate is not necessarily corrupting talk. But the manner in which we communicate must be to build up, not to tear down.
One of the keys to avoid tearing down is to avoid speculating on someone else’s motives. In
Luke 6:37 Jesus instructs: “judge not, and you will not be judged, condemn not, and you will not be condemned, forgive and you will be forgiven;”
While we may disagree with an action or a comment, we should not assume a wrong or evil intent on the other person’s part. None of us is 100% righteous in our thinking or understanding of the issues.
Matthew 7 reminds us to be more concerned with the log in our eye than the speck in someone else’s.
So let’s ask questions and engage in conversation but not judge motives or condemn others.
This is really just an expression of love isn’t it? Love should guide how we say what we say. Let’s communicate with each other the way we would want others to communicate to us.
Matthew 7:12 says, “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the law and the prophets.”
We can disagree—on current issues, on theology, on polity, on how to adjudicate charges. We can disagree on many things, but we should communicate with love in the way we’d want others to do for us. If you are criticizing another person in speech or in writing, consider how the Lord would want you to communicate. Put the name of the person you love the most (your spouse, child … yourself) in the place of the person you are criticizing, and consider how your words would affect them.
Another important part of loving, godly communication is listening well. James warns us to “be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger.” So when you go to share something with your brother or sister, make sure you listen well, too.
Friends, could it be that we’re not as mature as we thought we were? Could it be that we all need to grow in godly speech? That we all need to grow in genuine love when we see things differently? Let’s love one another enough to stop talking about each other and start talking to each other with grace.
There are people in our church who at times are engaging in ungodly speech as they judge motives and impugn the character of other Christians. But there are also people in our church who are gossiping about people that they consider to be gossiping. May each of us ask God to search our hearts and set a guard over our mouths (
Psalm 141:3).
If you think someone is slandering or gossiping in a conversation or a post online, don’t go talk about them to someone else—don’t go to your pastor or your care group leader first.
Matthew 18 commands you to first go to your brother and share your concern directly. Go in humility and gentleness. Listen, ask questions and share your concern. And if you have judged or spoken uncharitably about someone in this church, I want to urge you to go and ask their forgiveness. It’s one thing to disagree with them. You can do that (charitably). But it is dishonoring to the Lord to speak ill of them.
And if you have shut yourself off from a relationship and judged someone else because they see these matters differently than you, please let the gospel renew your mind and actions. Please go to them and express your love. Confess any judgments. Listen to them, and ask them to listen to you. Remind each other that our unity in Christ is greater than any of these issues. Let the peace of Christ rule, not a fear of conflict. We can disagree and still be united because of Jesus.
What I want you to hear is that as pastors we want the members of this church to talk about how our church can grow and improve. It’s healthy for members to be thinking about and talking about how we can be a more faithful, gospel-proclaiming church. The solution to ungodly speech and slander is not to shut down communication—it’s for all of us to be ruled by the word of God and to act like the body of Christ—to gently and lovingly challenge one another when our speech is unkind and to press forward in godly communication.
SOVEREIGN GRACE MINISTRIES [Speaker: Joshua Harris]
Now let’s talk about the elephant in the room—our church’s relationship with Sovereign Grace.
Yes, there has been tension. Recently, the point of contention has been over the handling of the crisis since CJ took his leave of absence.
Your pastors don’t think that our leadership in this time of crisis over the past four months [July-October 2011] is the real issue. We believe what has caused the crisis is deficiencies in the structure of Sovereign Grace, as well as deep-seated problems with the unaccountable and arbitrary ways its authority has operated.
Two Main Issues
We see two main issues that Sovereign Grace needs to address: First, deficiencies in the leadership structures of our family of churches, and second, the need for fair and objective evaluation of the many charges and criticisms being leveled against Sovereign Grace.
1. Deficiencies in leadership structures…
Presently, the board of Sovereign Grace is a self-appointed authority without constitutional accountability or checks and balances. And all authority within Sovereign Grace exists within this board.
Member churches and pastors have no constitutional means of voting upon the membership of the board or of redress to the board’s decisions.
While this would be reasonable if Sovereign Grace were only a parachurch ministry that seeks to come alongside of local churches for the purpose of producing music and literature, or for the purpose of furthering mission, but this is unreasonable if Sovereign Grace assumes authority over the leadership and policies of local churches.
Therefore, in order for us to maintain genuine and mutual partnership, our desire is to work with Sovereign Grace to clarify its purpose, to increase its accountability and to establish appropriate, biblical boundaries in its relationship to Covenant Life and other local churches.
2. Due process for the many charges and criticisms being leveled against SGM…
We remain convinced that a comprehensive and impartial review of Sovereign Grace leadership would serve everyone well. Much has been said about proper due process. We think it is very important for all sides to have an opportunity to share their thoughts. We won’t make progress without working through grievances, and we want to see that done with integrity in an orderly manner. The Sovereign Grace board has set in place plans for a Group Reconciliation Process and the evaluation of Brent’s charges, and we’re looking forward to see how they will act on what they learn.
We are deeply grieved by any way in which CJ and his family have been slandered. However, to characterize everything that has been said about CJ as unproven or slanderous accusations or allegations is inaccurate. It is important to note that there have already been significant admissions and confessions from CJ about patterns of behavior and specific leadership decisions and sins that have been brought to light and witnessed by many. When someone confesses to something, it’s no longer an allegation. To be fair, CJ has said that he doesn’t agree with all of the charges that have been brought against him, but his public confessions indicate that he is aware of the truthfulness of some of them.
Where an individual confesses his sins, there ought to be full and unreserved forgiveness. The Lord has forgiven us of so much, and we want to graciously extend forgiveness ourselves.
But the issues we are facing as a church are not primarily about CJ and his sins. It would be a significant mistake to see this as dispute between Brent and CJ. In fact, there are many other former leaders with grievances, as the need for group reconciliation reveals. Our concern is primarily about the organization and structures of Sovereign Grace, which we believe failed to guard the organization, its leadership as well as its membership from arriving at just such a crisis as this. We think that this controversy should lead to a thorough reexamination of all of Sovereign Grace’s leadership structures and ideas about biblical authority.
We’re doing this kind of self-examination at Covenant Life, and we see hopeful signs that Sovereign Grace is recognizing that this season calls for similar examination on their part. They’ve told us they are committed to this process of evaluation, and we are watching to see it unfold.
So the Question Is, Where Do We Go from Here?
Is there an impasse? We don’t think there has to be.
The reality is that the tensions and disagreement we’ve been working through over the past four months have been a strain on our church’s relationship with Sovereign Grace. We have asked questions as a pastoral team about whether we should step away from membership in Sovereign Grace. We’ve questioned whether we should maintain our current level of giving to Sovereign Grace. The actions of the Sovereign Grace board have shaken our confidence in their leadership.
So we’ve been praying and also seeking the counsel of other Sovereign Grace pastors, of other leaders in the body of Christ as well as members of this church. What I want you members to know is that your advice has served us. We believe its God’s will for us to move slowly and deliberately. And we think it’s important to continue to seek the input of the congregation on decisions of this magnitude.
Most importantly we want to be patient with Sovereign Grace as they work toward reform. Many of the weaknesses we see in Sovereign Grace are present in Covenant Life.
Just as our church needs time to work through reforms, we believe God would have us give the Sovereign Grace board some more time to work at reform. We want to let the process of them listening to present and former members play out. We want to better understand their plans for CJ’s evaluation. We want to see how they will involve member churches in clarifying the ministry’s purpose and its relationship to the local churches.
And during this period of waiting, we want to be faithful to encourage, exhort, commend and in some cases disagree as the Lord leads us. We believe this is true, healthy partnership.
Regardless of what SGM does or doesn’t do, we as a local church are committed to moving forward with needed reforms. We’ve come to see that the best way to lead through this season is to passionately pursue reforms in our own exercise of authority and practice of ministry.
I want to say a word to the Sovereign Grace Staff… To all the members of this church who work at Sovereign Grace Ministries and others who volunteer and support Sovereign Grace in so many ways, please hear this: Though we have disagreements with some of the board’s actions, we have great appreciation and affection for these men and this ministry. There is so much that we love and celebrate about our partnership with Sovereign Grace. So much good gospel work is happening through the music, conferences, training and church planting. Staff of Sovereign Grace, we love you and are proud the great work you’re part of. We are grateful for all the ways you serve Covenant Life as well. You have our love and support.
Giving
In the coming months we will be evaluating our level of giving to Sovereign Grace. Currently we give 10% of our annual budget. Not all Sovereign Grace churches contribute this same percentage. There is a wide range of giving. What we want you to hear is that the decision to evaluate our giving is an issue of stewardship—applying wisdom to how tithes and offerings given for the work of the ministry are used. Just as we are evaluating our polity and processes and drafting a new constitution, we want to consider what God is saying in the area of finances.
We believe that as a member church it’s important for us to give to Sovereign Grace, but at a juncture where there are unresolved questions on both sides, we think it’s wise to look carefully at the level of our contribution.
Let me share another factor that’s been on our hearts related to giving. For several years we have felt that Covenant Life has underfunded world missions. Our desire is to increase and diversify our giving to world missions. So we’re going to explore in the coming days additional ways that we can invest in gospel ministry around the world. Any decrease in giving to Sovereign Grace would be done gradually, in close coordination with Sovereign Grace, and with the involvement of the church members who make up our financial advisory committee.
Update on Recent Events
Now I would like to share some specifics on recent events…
CJ and Josh
CJ and I have met together once a week, the past three weeks for lunch. Both of us have enjoyed these times together and we are both looking forward to a formal process of mediation. Because of Ted Kober’s schedule the soonest this will occur is sometime in December or January.
Group Reconciliation
The peacemaking organization Sovereign Grace enlisted, called Ambassadors of Reconciliation (or AoR), has created a process called “Group Reconciliation” that will allow it to hear the stories of current and former members of Sovereign Grace Churches. The first stage of this will be happening at the Leaders Conference here in a few weeks. There is still an opportunity for people to participate who can’t come to the conference, and that information will be shared on the
Sovereign Grace website in November. We would encourage you to participate even if that means sharing negative experiences you’ve had here at Covenant Life. The goal of this process is to give the Sovereign Grace board a snapshot of the movement’s strengths and weaknesses. The Sovereign Grace board has shared their sincere desire for this to help them see and address weaknesses in the movement. The report AoR prepares for them will be shared publicly.
Brent Detwiler’s Charges
Just this weekend, the Sovereign Grace Board released a statement explaining the process for evaluating the charges brought by Brent Detwiler. It will involve an external review by AoR, which will include an evaluation of Brent’s documents in its report. It will also involve an internal review by three teams of Sovereign Grace pastors. I’d encourage you to read on the Sovereign Grace website the explanation of why Brent won’t be participating.
But let’s go back to the topic of greater partnership between pastors and the congregation. We firmly believe that we need to continue to grow in fostering congregational engagement.
I’d like Kenneth to come and share how the process of writing our new constitution ties in directly to this…
NEW CONSTITUTION [Speaker: Kenneth Maresco]
In light of all that we are talking about, you can understand how important polity is. Our new constitution will help us to grow in an informed unity with clear lines of authority and accountability.
Here’s the church government that we are moving toward: We want to be Jesus-ruled, pastor-led, and congregationally accountable.
So I just want to share with you a few things about where we are going.
The ad-hoc committees had their first meetings a week and a half ago, and their goal is to finish their reports by January 15. We are grateful both for the faithful members who are serving on the committees and the whole congregation’s prayers and support for their work. Each committee reported having an encouraging first meeting.
We’ve shared with you that we are prayerfully developing a new church constitution, and we are hard at work on the early drafts. The process includes comparing our document to other church constitutions and having conversations with pastors from other churches to ensure that the church governance we adopt will serve us well for many years to come.
We’re excited to announce that it’s our ambition, by God’s grace, to have a draft of the constitution ready to share with you by February 1. At that point, we plan to set up smaller meetings where members can sign up to come in and ask questions and talk to us.
There will be ample opportunity for discussion; we desire your questions and want to hear and carefully consider your perspectives. At the end of the process, we want to have a constitution outlining the way the pastors and congregation work together that we as a church can adopt with confidence. We don’t have all the details worked out at this point, but that is our general plan.
We want to share some of the things we are considering including in our new constitution:
We are considering very seriously the idea of non-vocational pastors, who will serve alongside the staff pastors in leading the church. (“Non-vocational” simply means they will be pastors who are not employed by the church but work another full-time job.) We believe that this will not only provide additional gifting that will serve the church; it will provide wisdom and grace. As non-staff pastors are recognized and affirmed by the congregation, we believe this will strengthen the relationship between the congregation and its leaders. We also see the ministry of deacons in the New Testament and are thinking through what that might look like here.
Let me outline several other areas where we plan to seek congregational affirmation:
1. The commissioning of pastors—both staff pastors and non-staff pastors—and in particular, any change in senior pastor.
2. The annual budget.
3. Major expenditures; that is, purchases that are not part of the regular budgetary process. For example, the purchase of property.
There may be other areas where congregational affirmation is appropriate. Tonight we just want you to get a general sense of where we think we’re headed.
We are looking forward to future conversations.
CONCLUSION [Speaker: Joshua Harris]
I want to end where I began…
How will we view this season of our church?
Some people look at it as a time of confusion and disagreement. We see it as God refining and shaping our church for greater effectiveness.
Some people view it as a time to blame and accuse. I view it as a time to evaluate our own hearts, to repent of our own sins—to receive fresh mercy and grace from our loving Father.
God has been so faithful to our church. And he will continue to be faithful. We have known his grace and we are confident in his future grace.
Nehemiah stood before the people of Jerusalem who faced a much bigger challenge than we do, and he said, “Come let us build!” I believe that is God’s call to each of us. We have such a strong foundation to build on. Let’s keep building. Let’s build a greater gospel partnership than ever before in this church.
Let’s make more disciples. Let’s go into our community and reach the hurting, the addicted and the lonely. Let’s plant more churches in our county. Let’s partner and learn from other gospel-centered churches and movements. Let’s become a community so centered on the word of God, so filled with the Spirit that the people in this county will say, “God has done something in those people!”
This is a historic month for us—next Sunday through our partnership with Sovereign Grace we are commissioning the team headed overseas. Think about this: we are sending our first pastor to another continent to preach the gospel. May he be the first of many! May we send and support hundreds of missionaries in the coming days. May we participate in a wave of missions that spreads out from our county to the ends of the earth.
We as your pastors are asking you to join us on the wall. Let’s build for the glory of God.
Thank you for being here tonight, and thank you for the ways you are seeking to honor the Lord. We will be continuing the conversation.
END